PODCAST | Retention Tactics for 2023

Resources:

Culture Tool

Christa Neidig:
Welcome to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Christa Neidig, Manager of Marketing and Business Development here at Vanderbloemen. In today's podcast I get to sit down with William Vanderbloemen and talk about how retention has changed over the years. We talk about the importance of retention in the workplace, and William shares what he's learned at Vanderbloemen about retaining staff and what makes a great workplace. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining us today. We are so excited, I have William here, and we get to talk about retention and culture, some of our favorite things these days. Hi, William.

William Vanderbloemen:
Hey, Christa. How are you doing?

Christa Neidig:
Doing good.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah. So, are you in prison?

Christa Neidig:
It looks like it, doesn't it, this gray wall? No, actually we are doing our new remote days which-

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah

Christa Neidig:
I know you are fully aware. So I was telling you when we first got on earlier, it's funny being over Zoom again now that we're doing more flexibility at the office and things like that.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah, yeah, and I'd love to talk a little bit about that. It's a really interesting time. I don't know that anyone knows what the new normal is or what it'll look like in a year or three years, or five years. And everybody is walking on eggshells a little bit. So, I want to hear what you all who are listening are learning about retaining people. I'd love to share where we have not done well with it, just from our team, and then also some things we're learning that work really well. Yeah. This is bad, Krista heads up our marketing team and she's going to hate me for saying it, but I'd love for this podcast to prevent some listeners from having to hire us to replace employees.

Christa Neidig:
Yep. Yeah. I know you mentioned that earlier and I was like, "Well here we go. Okay."

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah, yeah. Well the whole heart behind the office, and you know this, is we really want to see whoever is on Team Jesus, whether that's a church or a Christian school, or a Christian non-profit or a values-based business, whoever that is, to go farther in their mission faster. And I think if you've got the right people that helps you go farther and faster. So if you've already got the right people, we want to do what we can to share with you completely free of charge ways that you might keep them a little longer.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
And I think before the pandemic, in 2018 we did a pretty massive research project, really in '17, on what makes a great company culture, what creates an irresistible workplace. We studied 150 different businesses, churches, non-profits, that were all winning awards for best to place to work, so what do they have in common. And one of the most staggering pieces of evidence I found was it was from the secular companies that really had not even a strict code of ethics, but they were pouring money into office culture. And when I'd say, "Why?" they'd say well, because instead of having a 30% churn rate every year, I'm down to a 6% churn rate. I'm keeping 24% of our workforce. Do you know how much it would cost me to get you to come and replace 24% of our work?
So it's like a financial decision. And we dug into this a little bit more and realized retention in general, since World War II is shortening. I've got my plastic running watch on but there is days where if I'd been at the company 30 years I'd have the gold watch and that whole thing. And there's the traditional pension plans like the big three auto had in the roaring time of mad men and all that. Everything from the way we do retirement plans and deferred income, that's changed and given people more mobility. The way we live, my goodness, the generation that's retiring right now grew up with three TV stations, you just pick one of three. Probably if you liked Walter Cronkite ... lots of you are Googling who that is, if you liked Tom Brokaw you just stuck with them because that's who you trusted. Krista, did you grow up with a TV?

Christa Neidig:
I was going to say, and now people don't even use TV. I think everybody just Netflixes everything. And that seems to even be going out already.

William Vanderbloemen:
And what time does that come on?

Christa Neidig:
Anytime you want.

William Vanderbloemen:
Anytime you want. So you can get mad that retention is shrinking, and it is, don't be mistaken. Or you can just realize, we're in an on-demand world. People have more options, they're used to having options, they're used to moving around, it's not seen as disloyal. It's just seen as, "Hey, it's time to go try something new." And I think millennials and gen Zs get a bad rap for not staying somewhere very long. I think that it's just a different world.
And so back in '17 and '18, we were already seeing that in the next 10 years, the companies and churches, and non-profits, anybody that's paying staff, the people who can keep their staff a little longer than normal will be ahead financially. They'll also have an easier time recruiting employees when it's time to expand and grow your teams. Oh, my goodness, when our culture is at its best, people are bringing their friends saying, "My friend wants to work here," and "My friend ..."
So I think even before the pandemic we were seeing this. And now with the pandemic, you saw, we actually back in the end of 2020 predicted The Great Resignation before it happened. And it's going to keep happening. And I am hopelessly optimistic so I'm going to hope there is not a big recession in the next year. But if that happens there will be turnover and layoffs and it'll be more important than ever for you to know who your best people are and to keep them. Because in a time of economic volatility there's a lot of churning. You might lose a great person and I would much rather show you a free way to keep a great person than have you have to pay me. I'd rather get hired to find expansion employees for you, because you're growing into the right thing.
So, that's the heart behind it. We were sitting around in our lead-team meeting and Christa is on our lead team and you said something and then someone else said something and I said something and it led to, "Why don't we do a podcast and just talk about what we're learning?"

Christa Neidig:
I think that's exactly right. I think we started this conversation with what we are seeing. And you're so good about seeing what's around the corner. We saw that in 2020, you wrote the Forbes article and we saw it come to fruition. So, I'm excited to have this conversation. I think you hit a really good point of where I was hoping you would go with the new workforce post-COVID, but also the new workforce that's aging up, the people in their 20s and 30s. It looks so different. My parents and my father-in-law has been with the same engineering company since he graduated college. And he's probably getting that gold watch pretty soon. And it just looks different.

William Vanderbloemen:
Well it requires a lot more compassion and a bigger spirit of understanding than ever. Why are you saying this William? Because this is the first time in the history of the United States. There are five generations active in the workforce, gen Z, millennials, X'ers, boomers and a few builders left. And I guess we're going to alpha after gen Z, I think that's what's happening. But there are more people who grew up differently because the rate of change has been so accelerated over the last 50 years that it's just going to require older managers saying, "All right, I'll try this."
And frankly, one of the things you bring to the table Christa is you have an opinion and you have the ability to give informed advice, but you always do it in a way that never comes off as the snotty young person that knows everything. That's who I was. When I was 31, the only thing I had going for me when went to First Pres. Houston to be the senior pastor was I was 31 so I knew everything.
So the retention conversation begins with every generation in the workforce realizing, "Hey, we're jammed together like never before and it's probably time for all of us to just get our mind a little bit more around what the other generations have grown up with and are thinking so that we can just, frankly, be kind to one another." Who wants to work with people they can't get along with or don't like?

Christa Neidig:
Exactly. And I think you have a great point. Earlier we talked about just the idea of being authentic. I think Vanderbloemen, we experienced this as well with COVID and with culture, and just a fluctuation of that, of our staff has changed and we know what it looks like to have to rebuild culture. I'll just hit a little bit on my background. I graduated college at a time that was not a great time to graduate college in the peak of COVID. And luckily I interned at Vanderbloemen, loved it, and went to the first job that was offered me because I was uncertain of what would happen. And quickly found out within three months that the culture at that company, it was bad, it was not good. And I remember getting a call to you guys and couldn't come back to Vanderbloemen faster because I knew the culture that was there.
And that's what bought me in at the time and was the reason that I continued to want to pour into the culture and into the team there, is because I know how important that is for me in a place you spend 40 hours every week. You want to enjoy what you do and the people you're around.

William Vanderbloemen:
Absolutely and that cuts both ways, when you were interning you added a lot to the culture. And I remember talking to the COO at the time. And I said, "I didn't work with her much, but how about that person that interned? We also heard, 'add value to the culture.'" And the word I got back was, "Oh, no, she just took another job, you can't call her." I'm like, "Are you kidding? We're a search firm, call her."
So it goes both ways, when you find somebody that adds value to the culture, I don't know that you can put a monetary value on that. Because if you've got that person on your team that other people love being around and is also productive, man, they might be the key to keeping someone a few extra months, maybe even an extra year or two. And that gives you more productivity, more momentum. I've come to believe, and a lot of people have said this over the years that momentum might be the leader's best friend.
And so I think anything you can do to prevent momentum stopping or to keep momentum going is your number one task as a leader. And when you're losing people and have to replace them, and you have to teach the culture and onboard, it's a momentum killer, so yeah. And I'll tell you, coming through COVID, now I'm seeing there's some really interesting things. Everyone's culture during COVID stunk, it was awful. We were winning before the pandemic and really up until about 2018 or '19, we were winning Best Company Culture from Entrepreneur, Sixth Best Company to Work for In Houston. We won best office layout. We won Best Office Dog In the City, it got a little crazy.

Christa Neidig:
You just wanted a dog.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah. And then COVID hits, and there were a lot of factors, but it just wasn't the same. And there were a lot of factors there, I'm not just blaming the pandemic. But I think anyone who thinks their company culture was great during COVID is not being honest with themself. And if it was good it could have been better. And now we're in this weirdo spot where you've got little things you can do to build retention that we wouldn't have even thought of before now. I'll give you a couple if you'd like.

Christa Neidig:
I was just going to ask. I was like, "Why don't you share some of it?"

William Vanderbloemen:
What leader wants to hear what people are unhappy about? But some of it really does center around giving people a safe place to voice what they really are in a wad over. And so, for instance ... I'm sure you can include this in the show notes, but the culture tool-

Christa Neidig:
Yep-

William Vanderbloemen:
... is a tool that we have that in those 150 companies that we studied, we found eight common areas that they focused on. And they're not rocket science but it's eight different areas. And so we built a free tool and it'll give you a clear read. It gives your team a way to anonymously and easily, from an iPhone ... not a big, clunky 8,000-page report, give you a read on how you're doing. And I think we've had several thousand Christian organizations take this thing now.
So you can see how you're stacking against them. And then, we're even going to give you a space for people to say little things. Because here in our office we had our Vander Together or Vander Reunion, or whatever we call it when we bring everybody in. And there was enough time had gone by where people felt like, "Okay, I really can share what's going on."
We got to the very end of the two days we were together and Jen, our COO, said, "Is there anything else that anyone just wants to put out there that would improve?" And somebody said, "Could we get new office chairs?" Well this is a long-standing joke around our office that people break chairs. Not like slam them down. And we're start-ups, we know everything. So Jen didn't even look at me, she just said, "Yes, we're getting office chairs." And then, took it a step further. "Okay, we'll order chairs," is what I would have done. No, she brought three chairs in and everybody sat in them for a week, and we voted. And I'm sitting in my brand new chair that wasn't very expensive. My goodness, people like the chairs.

Christa Neidig:
[inaudible 00:14:18].

William Vanderbloemen:
If you give people the space to talk in an anonymous space, or if you create enough of a safe space they'll tell you little things. We went through cost-cutting in '18 and '19 where maybe we were spending too much on things and so the person in charge of it at the time really whittled down our costs. And we had a Keurig. I think we'd used enough Keurig pods to raise the earth's temperature by a quarter degree. So we were going to get rid of Keurig and we got the nasty ... Sorry, for those of you who love these, but those nasty Bunn coffeemakers that are in every church in America.
Gross, police stations and old churches have that coffeemaker and it's always burned coffee. Well, but it saved money. And lo and behold, coming back to the office this year, we said, "Well, what about a coffee service." So here I am, I have a little espresso. And maybe that's too froufrou, but it really wasn't too expensive, and just the energy that's going around that is amazing. Now don't go buy a coffeemaker, don't go get chairs, go find out where the easy wins are.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah. No, that's a great point. I think for our team those were two things. We sit our desks all day and we have an open office space and people have made jokes about the chairs, the squeaking, the noise. We have an open office space so hearing this squeaking all days gets a little bit a lot. And so we sat around and built our own chairs and it was a blast. We had the best time putting together these new chairs we got to sit in.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah. And look for a felt need but also look for where the workplace really is changing. And if you meet somebody who says, "I can tell you exactly how it's changing," run away from them because nobody knows yet. And if you just Google either Forbes, who I write for, they're having a summit on the future of the workforce. They're probably having as much to learn what others are saying as they are to share wisdom because we don't know.
The fact that Google called everybody back into the office, is there a more remote place than Google? And yet they're saying everybody needs to come back. I think it's the leader's job, and I'll go all recovering preacher on you, Christa, sorry. But-

Christa Neidig:
That's okay.

William Vanderbloemen:
So, I read the one-year Bible and I think you've heard me say this before, but last year ... I've done it a number of years, our 11-year-old at the time saw me reading my old dog-eared copy. Yes, a hardback copy, it's with paper and stuff. And she said, "You're reading that again?" And I said, "Well, yeah." And she looked at me and just as honestly as she could say, she said, "Do you ever learn anything new?" And I thought, well, A, what a great spiritual head of the house I am, "No."

Christa Neidig:
[inaudible 00:17:33].

William Vanderbloemen:
But B, what a good question. Why read Harry Potter for the 15th time? You already know. So my prayer for the year was, "Okay, God, every day just show me one new thing, even if it's a tiny little thing." And this year I saw the most fascinating thing in Leviticus, yes, in Leviticus. I'm making my way through Leviticus, and you go through the first nine chapters and all you hear about is what to sacrifice, "Well, you need to offer this sacrifice and you need to offer that sacrifice. And you set up the tent for the sacrifice like this. And you dress in these robes for the sacrifice. If they do this kind of sin then you sacrifice this. If the priest sins and brings guilt on the people." Only place it says that, be careful priests. Then you offer this kind of thing, and you offer this.
At the end of the ninth chapter of Leviticus, we get the very first command to the priests, I'd say to the leaders, that didn't involve sacrifices. In the 10th chapter of Leviticus, I've never seen it before, God showed me, He said, "Now, your job is to distinguish between what is sacred and what is common." And what God showed me there was not just sacred and common, but what's sacred? Sacred is permanent, it's going to last forever. Common comes and goes.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
It made me just think, and I think this is really true for leaders coming out of the pandemic, maybe the number one job I have as a leader, as this whole dust settles from the pandemic and the world shifts, maybe my number one job is to determine, what are the permanent trends and changes that happen from the pandemic and what are the things that are going to come and go? And how do I build my office in a way that the permanent things don't get lost and the common things don't get made permanent?

Christa Neidig:
Right.

William Vanderbloemen:
And maybe the biggest example I know of this is this whole flexible workspace, hybrid workspace, work-from-home space. I am pretty old school, as you well know, about work. I think we are meant to be together. I have one preacher friend who says the idea of doing everything remotely is actually a gnostic heresy. The gnostics didn't believe we had to be in the flesh, it'd all be just this secret knowledge that's known.

Christa Neidig:
You're going to take that one.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah, yeah. If virtual were so great, why didn't Jesus just Zoom everything in? So I really think in-person makes a big difference. And I've been slow to change on remote work. And the studies are coming out that show that a whole lot of remote work is not productive work. I've been slow to change on remote work. And the studies are coming out that show that a whole lot of remote work is not very productive work. The number one thing people said on their survey was, "Can we have more flexibility with work?"
That's what everybody in America is saying, so if your company is saying that you're not alone. The question is how do you answer it? By the way, first thing you should ask is does the type of work we do lend itself to remote or high in-person collaboration? We're high in-person collaboration so it's very difficult to do over Zoom. That may not be true everywhere, some industries are even more so. I've yet to see a remote workforce that can assemble a car.

Christa Neidig:
Gosh.

William Vanderbloemen:
It doesn't happen.

Christa Neidig:
My husband is in healthcare and he will never work remote.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah.

Christa Neidig:
There is just no possible way.

William Vanderbloemen:
But I do believe what is sacred or permanent is that we're supposed to work together. But what's common and needs to be addressed is a current felt need that may become sacred but I don't know yet whether it's going to be for real and forever. And so how do I create something that can be addressing the felt need of our culture to retain employees without marrying myself to something that may not end up being permanent?
And so I'm not smart enough to actually figure that out so I gave our COO that task. And she came up with a fabulous idea. We were going to do this podcast here in the office. I said, "Why don't we do it on this Wednesday because Christa gets to work from home?" Are we remote from home every Wednesday, Christa?

Christa Neidig:
Only if we hit certain goals, which is the perfect way to keep everyone excited about it.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yes. And there's-

Christa Neidig:
[inaudible 00:21:50] to talk about.

William Vanderbloemen:
And they're stretch goals, too, right?

Christa Neidig:
Yes. You have to work hard for them but what an accomplishment it is when you do hit them and you do get those days. I was talking to my team and we set our goals at the beginning of every single month. Our sales team and marketing team comes alongside each other. We set goals, we know what we have to hit and it's addressed all month long. And if we hit those we get to celebrate and we get this. And it's been great, because we are so collaborative on marketing where I like it when my team is all together. I like it for ideation, I like talking. I'm also an extrovert, if I was home every day I would go insane. Once a week is perfect because I can get all my busy work done without distractions.
But for Adriana, my newer employee on the team, she's an introvert. And Wednesdays are her days to recharge when we do get those, which is even extra incentive for her. And so it's just been great to see the flexibility and feel supported from the lead team, but also have goals to work towards. I think efficiency wise it's been amazing.

William Vanderbloemen:
And you leaders, maybe you're already doing this, but it dawned on me after Jen, our COO, told me this plan. I thought, "Oh, so if we do remote Wednesdays for a month and goals don't get hit, well then it goes away." So it's not a permanent change. Have you ever tried canceling an early worship service? Pastors know who I'm talking to. You can't do it. Once somebody starts that 8:00 service, even if it's just Mary and the other women at that tomb, you can't cancel that service. It's impossible, you've made something that could be common permanent.
And so what we're trying to do, and we're learning as we go, is say, "All right, this is a thing right now." We're going to say very loosely, "For a while we're going to try this and see how it goes. And it's going to have to be earned. And it's not bought, it's rented, it has to be re-earned every month and we'll just see how it goes." And I think it's been pretty well received. I'm going to be the last person to know when the culture is bad because I'm at the head of the org chart. And so by the way, if you're at the top of your org chart and you're like, "We have a great culture," don't believe that. The first day-

Christa Neidig:
[inaudible 00:24:12]-

William Vanderbloemen:
The first day a person is CEO is the last day they hear the truth. And if you don't know that, if you don't believe me, go do a little soul searching. First day you're senior pastor, last day you hear the truth, it's just universal. So I'd be the last one to know but my sense is that things are moving in the right direction. We're measuring and it feels that way. People are coming up to you, I think, Christa and saying those kinds of things.

Christa Neidig:
I'm on the floor every day and I get to hear it. I get to hear the talk that probably doesn't make it all the way over to you. But it is, it's going really well and I think the team has done a good job. It's built also a lot of trust on the team. I've had to trust my team members with it and we sat clear guidelines, of course, in order to manage things. But so far it's gone really well.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah, and I'll say on the retention side, if you're leading right now, you're leading in a fairly unprecedented time in terms of where momentum and favor is between employer and employee. So if you think about the history of work in the U.S., you had employees with zero rights right before labor laws started and unions started. You had kids working in factories, it was terrible. There is a place from some government regulation in things. Just go back and look before we had any kind of rules and you'll see there is some need for that. And then it swung a little bit more where the employees had some rights.
And it swings back and forth. So it's either the employers are large and in charge or the employees are. Right now, we are in a season where employees' rights have more voice and influence than ever. Some of it is social media. Think about it, and I'm going to make a lot of people mad right now, Christa, sorry. We're going to lose subscribers. But think about the college transfer portal. You get mad you're not getting enough playing time you just go to another school. Think about any industry where we're concerned that if an employee gets mad they're going to write a bad Google review about us and then no one is going to come work here. You as an employer, you can say, "Well it shouldn't be that way," and you can stomp your foot. Or you can wake up and be like, "Actually that's where we are. It will correct."
It always swings back and forth. If you look at the history you won't get afraid about the future. It's just over here right now and you need to respond to that without going overboard, without taking things that are common right now in this moment and making them permanent decisions that you can't undo. And for us, two really clear paths for that are trying to find a way where our folks feel like they can share their felt needs in an honest, anonymous way ... It leads to things like coffee, chairs, and sometimes in an open way where we heard loud and clear, "We need to at least try something a little more flexible, so let's build it in a way that incentivizes people to go earn that."
And we don't have it figured out. I think five years from now there will be a whole book written about how everybody thought they knew what they were doing with culture and it changed. I don't think the work-from-home thing is going to stick. There's thousands and thousands of years of human behavior that would have to be rewired because of a virus to make that happen. But I do think things might shift a little bit and they might change a little bit, so yeah, yeah. But-

Christa Neidig:
[inaudible 00:27:52]-

William Vanderbloemen:
... those are the two paths we've seen to trying to find a way to increase retention. Before the pandemic, the average tenure of a youth pastor in churches in America was 24 months. Not when they use us, but I'm hearing churches take a year to find a youth pastor and now they're only staying 18 months. What would happen if you could increase that 24 months to 48, where they take a whole class of high-schoolers together, and you say, "Well I want them here for 10"?
Give up on that, focus on increasing pass the norm. And what will happen is momentum will start, which will be your best friend and they'll bring more people to come work with you and they'll raise up their successor, and so, realize that retention is the ball game. And I think a lot of that is getting to know what your culture is honestly, your cultural health, what your values are. It's a lot of why we wrote the book we wrote out of that research project.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah, so let's talk about the book just a little bit. Because we wrote it a few years ago and you've hinted on cultures changing but there's a lot of things that are still going to remain the same. Culture is so important, it's a huge part of keeping your most valuable asset, which is your people that are working for you. So if there was maybe something that you would include now, it's 2022 and now we're a few years past, what would you include in the book? What do you see?

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah. Yeah, well I don't know. Either as I get old I'm getting dumber, or as I get older I'm realizing, "Wow, I'm learning more as I go," hopefully it's the latter. But now, I think one of the biggest mistakes I made in building our culture, even when we were winning all these awards, here's the mistake, here's my realization, culture and fun are not synonyms. I probably ought to unpack that a little bit. We did one best-places-to-work survey, when we were winning everything and everybody was bringing friends to work here, and we were hockey-stick growth. It was like start-up days and we were small enough that everybody knew everybody, it was just a fun, fun time.
Well, so in this best-places-to-work-survey it answered all these questions. Then one of the questions was, in three words, describe your workplace culture. Three words, not three words from the following list, any three words. I don't even know if they said in the English language, but let's assume English language. There are 155,000 words in the English language, probably more than that. But the last I looked that's where it was. Our people all picked three words. Over two-thirds of the office used the word fun as one of their three. And I thought, "That's awesome. People like working here, it's irresistible."
And yeah, they liked working here, it's irresistible, but then I just realized later, "Wouldn't it be a little better if they were saying meaningful or fulfilling?" Or I don't even know if it's a word, I don't really like it, but impactful is a thing people say. Wouldn't it be a little better than just fun? And fun, if you study company cultures that go off the rails, they all start at fun.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
You look at We Work-

Christa Neidig:
That's the-

William Vanderbloemen:
... fun-

Christa Neidig:
... one I was thinking of.

William Vanderbloemen:
Zen Desk, fun. There is so many, it was fun. And fun can be the playground of the enemy. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have a fun workplace, but don't make it the baseline. Fun and culture are not synonyms. So if you think culture means buying one more foosball table or doing one more company retreat, or a bean bag toss, or a sliding board instead of stairs, yeah, those are all fun. But that's not a synonym for culture.
And I think as workers in the faith-based world, we should have an advantage and a leg up on this. We should be able to say, "Oh, that's right." We should be looking for purpose-driven culture, not just fun-driven culture. It's true, two out of three Americans hate their job. Not just dislike, hate. So I get where people are like, "Well let's make it a fun workplace." But as I've studied over and over, I'm seeing some of the places that are the best places to work are really hard places to work and aren't fun. MD Anderson Cancer Center, people love working there. But would they describe it as fun? No.
So, leaders, don't get so caught up in Silicon Valley rerun episodes that you think you've got to build some playground to have a culture, you don't. You've got the best purpose in human history. You've got the hope of the world in Jesus Christ and the chance to spread that farther and faster. And the more you lean on that, and the more you focus on things that will fulfill your people and not just give them fun, the more I think you're going to see a workplace where people aren't leaving as quickly. And when they are leaving they've built somebody up. And when they are there they're bringing friends to come work with us. And basically, you're not having to hire us as much.

Christa Neidig:
That's great. Thank you so much, William. And we will include all the links to Culture Wins and the culture tool, and the show notes on the website so everyone can get access to those. But thanks so much for touching on this topic that really does hit so close to home.

William Vanderbloemen:
Thanks, Christa. Good to see you and good to talk to everybody, hope you'll tune in for the next podcast.

Christa Neidig:
Thanks for listening to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderbloemen, we help Christian Organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation and diversity-consulting services. Visit our website, vanderbloemen.com to learn more. And subscribe to our Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts, keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.